Does this Forum need a Disclaimer?
this question came up in the axe throwing folder(the thread is called "timberframing talk"), and i think it should be followed up. i think it's a good idea to place a disclaimer at the top of the page with the :
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buttons
especially with people like me, who tend to fly by the seat of thier pants, giving advice.

I'll copy and paste some relevant text from that earlier discussion here:
from Jim Rogers:
This forum would be greatly helped if some of the people in our industry who are experts would help more of the people looking for answers.
But then the old "liability" thing raises it's head.
I have been cautioned in the past from others about giving direct answers here.
And I can understand that.
If I post a direct answer and someone goes out and does it, and something goes wrong, can they come after me and sue me?
I don't ever want to find out....
I'd rather help them find their own answers, by pointing them to where the answer is, and let find it and understand it, before they use it.

from Joe Bartok:
I have popped the accountabilty question in other forums and as of yet have not received an answer as to whether the forum disclaimer covers the participants.
Until this issue is clarified I make a habit of thinking twice about the content of my posts.

from Derek Swanger:
Its sad were talking about lawers instead of timberframing. If some Joe Smith (please don't sue me if your name is Joe Smith) off the street asked " Aaah duhhh how big should my piece of wood be" My reply is "Aaah duhhh Hire a timberframer or go to work for one, you novice" Now if Joe Smith wants to understand some basic fundamentals of "picking a stick" We should all be helping out.
I am more interested in helping out other timberframers. Yes Yes Yes I love taking a perfectly good power tool, manipulating the crap out of it and using it for some wierd purpose. I could be the guy into lawnmower racing. I still have all my fingers. I would love to tell people some of the fun things I've built. Should I be afraid to post this kind of information? I'm just happy were down here at least talking about this stuff. We can save the really good stuff for conferences? I am itching to go to one again.

After Derek's post I tried to find a disclaimer on this forum, and I could not.
If you've been thinking about this issue, what do you think? There is more relevant info on the thread mentioned above:
http://www.tfguild.org/ubbcgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=47;t=000013

Hi, Mark -

Thanks for moving this up.

There have been many times that I have seen a post with a question that I believe I know the answer to, but hesitate, because I have learned from only one particular place, and maybe it's not the right answer, or maybe there's more to it, or maybe there are others who are 'real experts' and I should hold off to see what they say.

The last thing I want is to give mis-information, as I understand that that may have legal implications, not to mention the possibility of screwing up someones project!

Many forums offer not only a disclaimer, but rules and guidelines of sorts.
Whether we need them, I don't know...I suppose it's ultimately up to the TFG.
Maybe a survey or some sort of feed back to the guild is an idea...?

I have some news that a disclaimer is in the works for this forum and should be posted here, somewhere, soon.

Jim Rogers

bravo!!
good to see something at the top of the page, telling the unwary about the dangers of taking forum advice as the last word.
The blurb could use some formatting, though..... I should offer my services as I'm beginning to pick up a bit of work revising websites...

Mr. Swanger,

Are you objecting to this particular bit of lawyering, or merely aggreived (as I am) by it's necessity?

Do you think we need a disclaimer at all?

If so, would you care to write one for us to evaluate?

I apologise for going off on a tangent but is the guild losing timber framers?

No, no. Derek says we're "loosing" timber framers, not "losing" them. Loosing them on an unsuspecting public. I don't believe the Guild is losing members, and are currently at 1960 + members, maybe our highest total yet.

But I agree the disclaimer is a bit wordy and propose the following:

"DISCLAIMER:
Ask The Experts is a public forum, open to all, and is not formally monitored by the Guild staff. Therefore, we make no representations as to the accuracy or completeness of the information found there.
Membership in the Guild is also open to all. While many members are highly skilled timber framers, membership is not certification of that skill, but rather an expression of a person's interest in the art and craft of timber framing."

I think the last paragraph is unnecessary for the disclaimer, but is good advice.

Whatever is decided, could it be posted at the bottom of the page?
It seems to take up a lot of space, and things just don't seem right.

(Uh-oh. OCD kicking in....cannot accept change...must..fight..it...!)

I agree with Will's idea of a brief disclaimer at the top of the page, but I also think that a full disclaimer button should placed under the the brief. Also I think there should be a "proclaimer" such as, a statement on how to use the forum as a poster and reader, what to expect, the nature of construction design and specific problem solving and specification vs. the format of vague or non specific questions and equally vague, general and nongraphical answers.

I thought the original intent of the disclaimer was to encourage people to post here without fear of any liability for doing so. The way I read the current disclaimer, it seems to be sheidling the guild, not those posting here.

I also agree it's way too long. I like the idea of a button to push for the full disclaimer.

CB.

Daiku, the intent of the topic was about poster liability, the intent of the E.D. definitely addresses the Guilds need, as sponsor of the forum. Any tf poster or imposter should be responsible for their words as honest statements reflecting their own patterns of thinking not free technical definitive services.

Garage? Sheer luxury. There are many reasons why some dropout of membership. I have, but not for reasons relating to the Guild, its programs, its leaders or its people. The reasons are private. I post because I think I can aid and pass something on.

IMHO this forum's biggest liability is it's name; "Ask the Experts".

When I first started reading here I knew what timber framing was but nothing of how it was done. It took me several years to get (at a gut level) the fact that this was much the same as any of the forums I have posted in.

There are in fact no 'experts' anxiously waiting at the keyboard for the next question. There are only members volunteering what they know based on their own experience and their understanding of the question.

I agree with Raph. Regardless of intent, this forum is a timber frame discussion board. Experts of varying degree may hang out here, but since no one is appointed such, the name is somewhat.... inaccurate. CB.

I personally take what I read in all forums with a grain of salt. The old idiom of "you get what you pay for it " is appropriate here.
Joel
Is there any way that visitors would be hit with the disclaimer every time they visited and members would only be reminded on an annual basis?
Bob

I like Will B's suggestion of a shorter, more to the point disclaimer at the top of the forum, and I also like the idea of a button that would expand on the disclaimer, as in the third paragraph of the current version:

Before relying on technical advice received through the forum, published written reference material should be checked in order to confirm the accuracy of the advice. In searching for a timber framer through the forum, as with hiring any subcontractor or professional from any other source, ask for several recent references (including those of other professionals on past timber framed projects, such as the general contractors) and check all references as to the timber framer's apparent skill, punctuality, safe construction practices, ability to stay within budget and general professionalism, as well as whether the job was completed on schedule, whether errors in the framing were made that needed to be corrected and the reference's overall satisfaction with the completed job.

this paragraph is advice for an owner builder... something that would not apply to everyone coming here. Heck, some of us are just coming to share info, not neccessarily even about timberframing all the time. Information such as that above could be part of an expanded disclaimer, not part of the forum title. I'll just paste in Will B's suggestion here to rehash:

"DISCLAIMER:
Ask The Experts is a public forum, open to all, and is not formally monitored by the Guild staff. Therefore, we make no representations as to the accuracy or completeness of the information found there.
Membership in the Guild is also open to all. While many members are highly skilled timber framers, membership is not certification of that skill, but rather an expression of a person's interest in the art and craft of timber framing."

only problem for me is that this doesn't actually say "don't rely only on information from this forum to build your timberframe" clearly enough....

Roger has written a good line that I keep going back to:

I think there should be a "proclaimer" such as, a statement on how to use the forum as a poster and reader, what to expect, the nature of construction design and specific problem solving and specification vs. the format of vague or non specific questions and equally vague, general and nongraphical answers

this is a good description of the problem of asking questions about timberframing in an online forum. There are times when you may answer a question, and you have the feeling that the person who asks the question has not understood things, and then they disapear from the forum... it can get a little weird just relying on words to talk about structure. The word I really like in Roger's peice above is "nongraphical".

Just a random thought not strictly on the subject of a disclaimer. I was scrolling down the main page when it occured to me that the "Health and Safety" section should be brought up to a more prominent position. It's currently in the out of site out of mind position.

huh

...likes advice... -NO- ...doesn't like advice that isn't there...

OK. Got it.
(did I give any advice...?)

(ok, ...so we got 2 cents to make four sense....and Derek gets richer by...what was that?...)
Thank for the compliments...still feelin' a bit blonde, though... :rolleyes:

ALL:
Happy holidays, no snow in the northeast.
Disclaimer: The following is a personal opinion and does not reflect the actual collective feelings of a rather eclectic every changing membershihp.
Joel:
Could you please address the resaon for a discalimer, as unfriendly as it may be.

Shorter is better, a sign in/sign off that can be forever hidden once you have hit the magic button might help.

AS in all things there is at least one solution to any perceived problem but it is unlikely that we might all offer the same solution.
Spell check does not prevent people from making mistakes.

re: membership
Sharing information freely often causes folks to realize that they do not need to pay for it and as a voluntary membership organization that only seeks to share information and further the sharing of that information we expect turnover in our membership. If we were a trade association our attittude might be different and membership would not likely be open to all.

In my opinion,
curtis

We asked the TFG attorney to write us a disclaimer after a messy incident in which a perfectly nice woman found the perfect timber framer via ATE. She did not take the time to ask for any references, and was roundly disappointed and financially penalized in this association, for which she blames the TFG.

I like disclaimers in general, though I can deplore their necessity at the same time. Disclaimers should remind us that we are, in fact, responsible for our own actions; contrary to what deep tides of contemporary culture would have us believe.

If several of you think this particular disclaimer is too harsh, or too long, or too much or too little of anything, I am happy to sponsor a revision committee, whose (single) result I will submit to the attorney for analysis.

If you are of the opinion that we don't need a disclaimer at all, I will have to disagree. It makes a much sense to me as insurance.

If you don't like seeing the disclaimer every time you connect to ATE, I would suggest that you go directly to the forum you are interested in, since the disclaimer appears only on the intro page.

If you think the disclaimer should only appear when people register, I must disagree. The innocent are able to read ATE forums without registering; registration is only required of folks who want to contribute.

I do think our time would be well spent in revisiting the title of these forums.

Joel
Not being an expert at anything....
Perhaps it is actually the title of forum that needs a new name. "Ask the Experts", to me implies the answers I get are the best available (which MAY be true). "Ask the Members" or "Ask the Forum" would leave me with a desire to verify or substantiate advice I get. I do concur with your assessment that the Guild needs to have a disclaimer but the one presented reads like it was written by a lawyer....OH yeah....you said it was.
Bob :p

THE PLANTIFF: Construction worker in Tulsa

THE DEFENDANT: Doctors

WHAT HAPPENED: He intentionally cut his hand off with a circular saw. When he was taken to the emergency room, he told doctors not to reattach the hand, saying that it was possessed. The man is now suing the doctors for not reattaching his hand, claiming that the doctors should have known he was psychotic.

THE VERDICT: Unknown

On a symbolic level:

the construction worker: people who give advice on this forum that think a disclaimer is bad.

the doctor: the open-minded reasonable others.

the hand: the disclaimer.

It is not the guild's fault for the disclaimer or the attorney for the legal jargon. It's the fault of the people who sue over their own ignorance, naivete, lack of principles or ethics, or just plain stupidity.

I don't like to read it more than once, so I just bypass the page with a bookmark.

Happy New Year. mo

Yay, Mo!
I agree completely, and was pondering a good way to express my opinion on all this, but you nailed it, thereby alleviating me of the pondering. Thanks!

Unfortunately, the need to protect the forum with a disclaimer is, I believe, a step that is necessary.

*Unfortunate that it's necessary, that is; not unfortunate that I believe that it's necessary.

(Great, now I'm succeeding in confusing myself as well as others!)

I have not posted questions or responses to posts on this forum for quite some time. I am going to be very open and honest here and what I say represents my feelings and opinions as a budding timberframer and sawyer.

The reason I have not posted is because of a lack of activity on the forum compared to some others and vauge or almost sarcastic replies to those who are searching for direction and answers from what they perceive to be "Experts" as the forums name implies.

The name must be changed! I suggest you call it "ask for an opinion" page. This would protect the participants and negate the need for a disclaimer.

I see the TFGuild as an entity which is being pulled in two opposing directions. The "Professional" members would like to limit "free" professional opinions and therefore give vague and relatively unhelpful answers as they would prefer to charge an engineering and consultation fee. This is both fair and equitable for them however this is a not for profit site and education is supposed to be the primary stated goal of the TF Guild. Not protectionism or drumming up business or "buy the book". I would propose the following solution(s).

I like the idea of a posting form/survey to help guide a novice in posting a question. It would guide and educate them in answering some of their own design questions and also provide the Guild with some valuable data. For instance, to a professional timberframer, being asked a question about rafter size, the first response is: I need to know span, load info, wood species, etc. This is not so intuitive to the beginner.

Remember also that non-members can post as well as members and non-members do not have access to all of the Guild resources so telling them to consult a certain area of the website may not be a good answer and will only send them out on the web searching for free answers elswhere and they will probably be misguided and eaten by the wolves. This website should be a safe haven and the end of the road site those seeking truths regarding timberframe issues.

A survey/posting form could also serve as a source of contact information for those who wish to provide or engage professional services. By checking a box in the posting form stating "I would like to be contacted regarding paid professional assistance" and entering info such as type of project, date of construction etc.

Historically Guilds revealed trade secrets to apprentices only after they proved themselves worthy though internship and on a needs to know basis. There was a hierarchy system that kept the flow of valuble information out of the hands of the novice and demanded that they attain a cetain level of knowledge, skill and poficiency before they were granted apprentice, journeyman, craftsman or mastercraftsman status.

I would like to propose that the TF Guild begin an online training course that would be available to all who pay the annual membership fee and it would contain reading and study with an online test which upon passing would culminate in the attendance of a workshop or a rendezvous where a master would evaluate their understanding and level of skill. Those who post would have their skill level posted along with their screen name. At the Guilds Annual Conference there would be an induction ceremony each year to confer titles to individuals who progress through the Guild.

This approach would:
1. Increase forum participation without fear of legal reprisal or humilitation
2. Enhance and encourage Guild membership
3. Serve to educate the public and expose them to timberframing
4. Build working relationships between professionals and novices
5. Promote the business of professional timberframers to those who are not seeking to do it themselves and simply need professional advice or consultation.

Sounds similar to the purpose statement of the Guild doesn't it?

I would not consider myself an expert or barely a novice but I am eager to learn and I am always sifting through the posts here to try and glean information relevant to my projects. I do plan to join the Guild but I currently do more posting on an alternate website as the participants are more active, less sarcastic and tend to be more open about expressing opinions, giving practical advice and helpful info. The Guild currently tends to be be less active and more philosophical and protectionist in post responses.

Crabtreecreek:
You should/could forward your post to the board of directors and ask them to forward it to the education committee for review. Not all directors and committee members read all these posts.

Your comment: "consult a certain area of the website may not be a good answer" sometimes doing that maybe the simplest, quickest, and only reply some of them get. And if the answer is there, why not?

I read a quote on the wall at a timber framing school that said: "I hear and I forget. I see and I remember.. I do and I understand."

If they do it themselves, that is find there own answers then, I feel, they will understand.

I personally haven't noticed the following: " vague or almost sarcastic replies to those who are searching for direction and answers from what they perceive to be "Experts" as the forums name implies."

I suppose that's a matter of interpretation of the reader. Possibly you could site a couple of examples to me privately....especially if they are my posts...

And if there are other forums where there are better answers and more activity about timber framing, please fill us in to where it is and we'll join you there.

Your comment: "A survey/posting form could also serve as a source of contact information for those who wish to provide or engage professional services. By checking a box in the posting form stating "I would like to be contacted regarding paid professional assistance" and entering info such as type of project, date of construction etc. " this is probably best handled at the Timber Framers Business council site, similar to their request form for finding a timber framing company.
Have you seen that?

You have to be careful in your post you have suggested two things. One is education and one is business or to help promote business. The guild side of things is education. The business side of things is usually handled by the business council.

Years ago, I suggested a section of this forum could be where companies could post times and locations of frame raisings so that people interested in seeing one and learning more about timber framing could go and watch and learn. I was told that's business and this forum site couldn't do that, as it is an educational site.

And I must admit that there is more recent postings here than there has been for sometime.

Jim Rogers

From a legal point of view I'd say: Yes this Forum definitely needs a disclaimer. There should be no doubt about it.

Even if I go in here to look for answers, from a professional or not, I cannot necessarly take that for granted. Especially since no one here can look at any particular situation in person. All we have is the info from the person seeking help. So if in doubt always find a local professional to look at the situation and evaluate. There is never just one solution to a problem nor does one solution that might apply in lets say Massachusetts necessarly apply for Florida or any other state.

I agree that the name should be changed. It implies too much about who is responding to the questions. This is a Timber Framing discussion board - no more. CB.

I agree with daiku.

let it be known as the TFG discussion forum

ask the experts is just loaded with implications

gh

Yes, drop the name "Ask the experts". I like Gabel's suggestion:

TFG discussion forum

also, I have a long standing complaint about this forum
I would rather the threads read in the other direction when one is composing a reply
this would place the most recent post closest to the reply writing box....

http://www.tfguild.org/ubbcgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=47;t=000028

Crabtreecreek,
Great suggestions for improvement.
I'd be very interested in the alternate website you're using if you would share it. Maybe we'd learn something. I, for one, am lobbying for a change in name for this Forum to clarify its purpose.
I have to take issue with the your perceived motivation behind the professionals: I don't think they're motivated by money to withhold responses. In the case of engineering, it's a reluctance to give a definitive answer without having all the necessary information. This is a liability issue. It's much easier to make these decisions with a set of plans rather than a few sentences.
Anyway, you're outline of a training format is very good and I'll see how it fits in with our ongoing curriculum development. Very well, I think.

OK, since you asked, I am not endorsing any one site over another but The Foresty Forum website has a board devoted to log and timber home building. I would not say it is better or worse but there does tend to be more activity and those posting seem to be very open minded. Discussions tend to be more "get 'r done" and less philosophical. It seems as those posting are not as concerned about liability. I have learned alot and seen alot of interesting homebrew contrivances.

It appears that many of my previous thoughts have already been covered in the "Apprenticeship Program" post Derek dug from back in 2002. I will post on it so as not to hijack this thread.

I like Gabel's suggestion for the forum title as well.

I see we've been re-named. CB.

How about we call it "Pull Swangers Chain". Thats one of the best reads in the forums anyway. ; )

"These forums are not formally monitored by the Guild staff." Perhaps they need to be,is this line an open door to inappropriate postings. Tom

Well, we have learned (the hard way) that the posts are at least monitored. Just ask Steve Lawrence... :rolleyes:
I think if inappropriate posts are made then the poster would get notification, or at least an edited post.

And keep an eye out for spammers, guys! There's a lot of it going around, can be tricky to spot, but if it's even suspect then make note of it.

Please elaborate.

I noticed that one too,TG. It appeared about the same time as the nude photos and the escort service did yesterday morning. One look at the personal profile gives it away.

Hi, Joel!
Higher volume on a forum brings more opportunity for spammers and possible viruses...
I don't like either, and if I think there may be something a bit strange in a post - like very vague questions - I will make a post to bring it to the moderators attention so they can check it out.
Mind you, I suppose some of my own questions have been rather vague... :rolleyes:

Do you recommend that I remove Helen's post?

Ken Hume responded to her, as well as another person.

It is difficult for me to see a spammish nature in this post; it could be phishing, or just English as a second language.

Please advise.

The Paris Hilton videos are easier to classify.

Maybe you should delete it....Check out her profile.
I know many of us are interested in sex, but it may not be the right forum to state that interest, if you know what I mean..

Hi Guys,

I seemed to miss out on the video, glamour pictures and phishing - whatever that is ?

As I said, some posts are bound to be a bit cranky but it takes all kinds. Hopefully we not out to do anything wrong to others and who knows even those interested in s*x just might get to be interested in timber framing as well.

That reminds me - time to get that boring machine oiled up !

Regards

Ken Hume

You've got a point...HAHA!!

I think she likes Joel, Helen's back again, Only in the directors forum this time. Three days in a row, same post, but no reply to Ken?

QUOTE]I thought they were the same thing. Can I borrow that boring machine for five minutes? [/QB][/QUOTE]

Helen might need to borrow it, too, after you are done with it

Seems like she should be blocked and the postings should be removed. Even though she has not said or posted anything questionable it seems like this forum has been targeted with spam. Who knows what will come next? Can postings not be filtered in any way? I do not know enough about web pages and how computers work but there must be a way.

In light of recent post about Paris Hylton perhaps the disclaimer should read "Caution posts may contain nudity and adult content".... If this continues the hit count on the TFG website will be up there with Google. I'm not this has anything to do with timberframing unless it is how to move timbers with a horse?

So all the regulars have bookmarked 'General Forum Questions' (in order to bypass a wordy disclaimer) and don't visit the other categories; there is a little discrimination of topic content, all lumped into the one forum ...

Could someone move my starters into General, where they are more likely to get response?

Thanks, Lee

I still have the main page bookmarked, I don't mind the disclaimer being there, it only takes a second or less to scroll down to the topics... I still have my grievance with the forum though. When I am writing a reply I feel it would be better if the posts could be listed from newest to oldest, so that the thread I'm generally replying to is closer to my edit box. I see this in other forums, the forestry forum has this feature, for example.

Here we go again,

another session of Paris Hilton. Is there any way to get a filter installed to prevent posts like this from being published? I am no computer expert but I am sure it can be done. Thanks

Here's what we do:

Each new forum registrant must be approved for participation. This weeds out folks with obvious website or e-mail addresses, like BigJohnXXX@smackdown.ru. (25-50 folks attempt to register each day; each one gets reviewd. The ambiguous ones get a pass - which is why we get any spoof-spam at all.)

I receive notice and content of every post for each forum that I moderate, and delete the obvious Paris Hilton postings immediately. (There are 25 or more postings each week day, often more on weekends, mostly at night.)

Then I delete the user account for the 'person' authoring the offening post.

Finally, I add the poster's domain and IP address to my ban lists.

Unfortunately for us all, this only reduces the roaring tide to a freshet.

You can help, by continuing to bring offending posts to my attention (Jim Rogers is the absolute champion at this!). I will remain vigilant.

PS, I do NOT do this work when I am travelling, because it is just all too tedious to accomplish from the Blackberry. So I do skip at least a couple of days a week, sometimes catching up from the hotel, sometimes letting it all slide for a day or two.

Joel,

We really do appreciate the work you put into this forum.

3 cheers

Gabel

Joel

Three more cheers from the left coast.

Scott

Three more from the Mid Coast.

yes, hip hip hurray from the great white north(-25C today) I would never expect to see zero spam/porn/whatever on an internet forum... I feel that the moderators are doing a good job with all that crap.

Much Thanks.

Keep up the good work, Joel. It is appreciated.

Thanks for the kind words.

Rather than fishing for compliments, what I thought I was doing with my post was apologizing for slow service.

You are already doing the two most important things you can do to keep the spam to a minimum; keep reporting it directly to me, and don't be distracted from the threads that interest you.

It's really working quite well I think.

Hats off to you posters.