German Timber frame Design
#3976
03/02/07 03:25 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 14
David F.
OP
Member
|
OP
Member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 14 |
My name is David Frankenfield and I design and craft timber framed homes and barns. I have been coming to the forum for over a year now and I enjoy reading all the terrific post that all of you have written. We frame with a lot of Hemlock and Eastern White Pine. Yesterday I received a request to frame a German or perhaps Austrian type home for a couple here in Maine. The clients have a cuckoo-clock of which they love the design of and they want us to replicate the clock. I was wondering if any of you had framed homes in this European style. We generally produce New England style frames using square rule joinery, principal rafters and minor purlins. Any help or steering me to books or other resources would be much appreciated.
David
|
|
|
Re: German Timber frame Design
#3977
03/02/07 11:36 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 718
Dave Shepard
Member
|
Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 718 |
E.H.Carpentry has experience with German timber framing. I know he checks in here frequently.
Dave
Member, Timber Framers Guild
|
|
|
Re: German Timber frame Design
#3978
03/02/07 11:42 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 718
Dave Shepard
Member
|
Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 718 |
Welcome to the forum, David F.!
Member, Timber Framers Guild
|
|
|
Re: German Timber frame Design
#3979
03/03/07 12:35 AM
|
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 14
David F.
OP
Member
|
OP
Member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 14 |
Thank you Dave Shepard. I wanted to post a picture but I couldn't see how to do this.
|
|
|
Re: German Timber frame Design
#3980
03/03/07 12:52 AM
|
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 718
Dave Shepard
Member
|
Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 718 |
Check out the thread "posting associated pictures", I brought this to the top so you could read it through. I also am just learning to post pics. I downloaded an image optimizer from www.xat.com. It only took about a minute to download on dialup, and works well for getting pics ready for the internet. Dave
Member, Timber Framers Guild
|
|
|
Re: German Timber frame Design
#3981
03/03/07 12:34 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 14
David F.
OP
Member
|
OP
Member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 14 |
I am going to try to post the picture of the clock.
|
|
|
Re: German Timber frame Design
#3982
03/05/07 11:37 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 194
E.H.Carpentry
Member
|
Member
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 194 |
David, welcome to this Forum. Well those Germans, nothing better to do than making cuckoo clocks Like Dave already mentioned( thanks Dave) I have experience in German Built TF. My favorite by the way. Your clock however looks more like a log home with TF roof. You can contact me under my private e-mail if you want and will send you some pics of German style TF. Not sure what square rule or other layout options are. But in Germany we were using perfactly square timbers from the mill. They get planed and then cut and fitted. And if you are really willing to get this type of frame cut you better have a least one Mafell Chain mortiser or else a lot of helpers that will cut all your mortises and tenons. Byk the way: Are your clients interested in just a german style frame or also in the exterior frame exposure with brick or plaster infill? Back to another post where I was asking for Hundeggers in my area: This is exactly why. A lot more joinery than in a traditional american Frame.
|
|
|
Re: German Timber frame Design
#3983
03/06/07 01:37 AM
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 194
E.H.Carpentry
Member
|
Member
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 194 |
David, here are some sample pics. Edited for pictures
|
|
|
Re: German Timber frame Design
#3984
03/14/07 12:17 AM
|
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 14
David F.
OP
Member
|
OP
Member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 14 |
Thank you E.H.
The pictures are great. I need to meet again with the customers to get more in put. I also think that the clock may be of log construction. Designing a house from a cuckoo clock? I must be going cuckoo!! :rolleyes:
|
|
|
Re: German Timber frame Design
#3985
03/14/07 12:41 AM
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 7
beerfreak
Member
|
Member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 7 |
Ever thought that you might be in the wrong nest.
|
|
|
Re: German Timber frame Design
#3986
03/14/07 01:58 AM
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 194
E.H.Carpentry
Member
|
Member
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 194 |
David,
maybe they are just impressed by the huge roof overhangs. But that is not hard to accomplish. Did they get the clock in Germany or did they purchase it in the States? If they have been to Germany in all likelyhood they did see some of those hundreds of years old Timberframe houses. Maybe that is more what they are refering to rather than the actual clock.
|
|
|
Re: German Timber frame Design
#3987
03/14/07 02:08 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 71
Timbo
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 71 |
Find a copy of Hermann Phleps " Craft of Log Construction" It has photos and diagrams of every notable timber and log constructed building in europe. If you can't find something in this book to blow your client away I'd be surprised. I just looked on amazon and they have it and LeeValley tools carries it.
Timothy W Longmore
|
|
|
Re: German Timber frame Design
#3988
03/14/07 12:16 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 687
Gabel
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 687 |
E.H.Carpentry,
Were you involved in the building of the house(s) in the photos?
If so, was the timber dry? I assume it's all oak?
Do you know how the Brick infill was detailed -- wall thickness, flashing details, insulation, inside finish, etc? Is timber movement a problem?
Thanks,
GH
|
|
|
Re: German Timber frame Design
#3989
03/14/07 09:57 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 14
David F.
OP
Member
|
OP
Member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 14 |
E.H. the clients wife is from Sweden and she has relatives that are from Austria.I think they like the overhang alot and also the "snub hip" roof. I have been told that this roof desgin is called KUPPEL WALM.
Timbo- I did just recently purchase the Hermann Phelps book mostly for the clients to look at for ideas.
|
|
|
Re: German Timber frame Design
#3990
03/14/07 10:20 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 194
E.H.Carpentry
Member
|
Member
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 194 |
Gabel,
I was not involved with these particular houses on the picture but many others. I cannot post all those pictures here but you get the idea.
As for the wood species and dryness level. Yes this is an oak frame since we want it to last. Dried to about 12%. Shrinkage or expansion is not an immediate problem. After some hundreds of years though the bricks may start falling out. But by then some of the frame work may have to be repaired also. So not really an issue. All timbers have a V-groove along the face that is facing the brick infill. This way the mortar will lock in place and the infill will not fall out. As you can see the frame sits on a 6" brick sill with weep holes. The frame is 120mm (~5") thick. Wall cross section, inside to outside: 120mm frame with brick infill, 40mm furring (~1.5") for venting the frame/brick, 15mm woodfiber insulating sheathing (~1/2") this is sort of like a MDF but very soft( not sure what it is called here) never seen it at any lumber yard, 120mm stone wool insulation, 115mm limestone wall with 15mm gipsum plaster. So that is a total of 425mm which equals 17". Second and third story walls are similar only there we are using a 2x6 wall with insulation instead of the limestone wall.
Now you might argue that this is a waste of space and very costly. Well from a european point of view I have to say that first of all this makes a very energy efficient and air tight house with very small utility costs. Also Europeans are not so crazy about having a huge house with fireplaces over two stories and "open" floorplan which essentially yes looks impressive but is pointless and useless since there is a lot more space wasted that way than having thick walls. And since many houses are still being build with brick or some sort of stone masons are not as expensive there as they seem to be in the States. So building a house like that on the picture would cost around 200000 Euro including taxes. Hope this claryfies some of your questions. If not, ask me again.
Enrico
|
|
|
Re: German Timber frame Design
#3991
03/14/07 10:44 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 194
E.H.Carpentry
Member
|
Member
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 194 |
David, thought it was the impressive roof overhang and the balcony that they like. Not so much the log style house. Yes, they are right this type of roof is called Krueppelwalmdach, since the hipped part does not come all the way down to the height of the soffit of the main roof as it would with a regular hipped roof also know as Walmdach Good luck with your project. Edited for spelling.
|
|
|
Re: German Timber frame Design
#3992
03/14/07 11:13 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 194
E.H.Carpentry
Member
|
Member
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 194 |
Here some more picture. Need to install another software that lets me crop and resize pictures. Rigth now I just have to scan them in the right way. Very time consuming. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
|
|
|
Re: German Timber frame Design
#3993
03/15/07 03:20 AM
|
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 87
pegs_1
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 87 |
What I want to know is how you kept from busting out laughing when the customer asked you build a timber frame house like a cuckoo clock. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have gotten that job. But it would have been worth the giggle anyway
|
|
|
Re: German Timber frame Design
#3994
03/15/07 10:32 AM
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 194
E.H.Carpentry
Member
|
Member
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 194 |
pegs_1,
the clock is detailed pretty well. Well enough to get the basic design for a house anyway. The curious details like trees, people and the clock part aside the idea of wanting a house that looks like the clock is not so far fetched at all. Especially since some of the relatives seem to be Austrian. Ever been there? Almost all houses look like that. Though they are not necessarly log homes.
|
|
|
Re: German Timber frame Design
#3995
03/15/07 01:46 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 718
Dave Shepard
Member
|
Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 718 |
EH, I use an image optimizer from www.xat.com, if you go to that address, it is the first download "Image Optimizer" for jpeg and gif files. It only took me about two minutes to download and install. It will allow you to crop, resize etc. Hope this helps. The frames in your pictures are impressive. Are they white oak, or a similar variety? I would think red oak would rot to fast. Dave
Member, Timber Framers Guild
|
|
|
Re: German Timber frame Design
#3996
03/15/07 06:44 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 217
Don P
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 217 |
I worked on a red oak frame with brick nogging locally. The siding was removed and the low fired salmon bricks were exposed, they were never intended to be. The frame was totally rotted out in the next 10 years, it did have other problems that contributed. I do like the style and hope to see more details and explanations For the clock, does anyone live near New Glarus WI? I think I remember several examples of that style in that area.
|
|
|
Re: German Timber frame Design
#3997
03/15/07 11:44 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 194
E.H.Carpentry
Member
|
Member
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 194 |
Dave, if I remember correctly they were white oak. We usually also stained them which helps shed most of the water instead of the wood soaking it up. The stain was similar to the Penofin deck stain which penetrades the wood but does not seal it so it can breath. Thanks for the link. Bob Spoerl send me one, also. Now I have to choose which one to use. Hey this rhymes . Enrico
|
|
|
Re: German Timber frame Design
#3998
03/16/07 12:48 PM
|
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 895
daiku
Member
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 895 |
Originally posted by Don P:
For the clock, does anyone live near New Glarus WI? I think I remember several examples of that style in that area. That's not what New Glarus is famous for, these days. Spotted Cows or Fat Squirrels, anyone? CB.
-- Clark Bremer Minneapolis Proud Member of the TFG
|
|
|
Re: German Timber frame Design
#3999
03/17/07 01:57 AM
|
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 574
Timber Goddess
Member
|
Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 574 |
All timbers have a V-groove along the face that is facing the brick infill. This way the mortar will lock in place and the infill will not fall out. EH - That's great! I love learning these types of tricks of the trade....and I've always wondered about this one. (But not really taken the time to think it trough, apparently...) It's right up there with when I learned about chinking a log home by utilizing bent nails to hold the chink to the logs. Cool stuff. Thanks!
|
|
|
Re: German Timber frame Design
#4000
03/17/07 02:46 AM
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 194
E.H.Carpentry
Member
|
Member
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 194 |
Timber Goddess,
the other benefit of doing this is that since the mortar does not adhere and stick to the frame forever it still keeps it airtight. Sort of like weatherstripping. The wind cannot blow straight through the "gap", since there is the v-groove filled with mortar that works like a baffel.
|
|
|
Re: German Timber frame Design
[Re: beerfreak]
#10964
04/07/07 12:28 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 194
E.H.Carpentry
Member
|
Member
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 194 |
David F.,
just checking in to see if you have gotten anywhere with your cuckoo clock house. Would be nice to see somebody else doing something out of the ordinary. Or have you indeed gone cuckoo?
|
|
|
Re: German Timber frame Design
[Re: E.H.Carpentry]
#10980
04/08/07 12:55 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 27
Michael Yaker
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 27 |
New Glarus was a swiss settlement, that is now famous for a microbrewery with some excellent beer,(uff da, totally naked,among others already mentioned) available only locally. The Fachwerk frames I am familiar with are more on the eastern side of Wisconsin , specifically some early settlements in Dodge county. A few buildings have been restored and exist at old world wisconsin in eagle. http://www.wisconsinhistory.org/oww/For those of you interested and local I will be leading a work shop May 26 on basic timberframing there.
|
|
|
Re: German Timber frame Design
[Re: Michael Yaker]
#11113
04/14/07 05:06 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 14
David F.
OP
Member
|
OP
Member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 14 |
E.H. ,
The cuckoo clock home quest has cooled off. They are in the process of selling their current home but until that happens the cuckoo bird will fly south.
David
|
|
|
Re: German Timber frame Design
[Re: David F.]
#11119
04/14/07 08:39 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 194
E.H.Carpentry
Member
|
Member
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 194 |
That is to sad. Let's hope it does not fly to far.......
|
|
|
|
|