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#4116 - 03/20/07 07:11 AM Re: Possible faulty timberframe joints
BWeiser Offline
Member

Registered: 03/15/07
Posts: 8
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Brad_bb--It's not that the pegs have "backed out"--the pegs are literally two separate pieces. The builder was unable to drive a single peg the whole way through the joint for whatever reason (looks like they didn't bother to taper the end to help with the hole offset, possibly). To deal with this, they drove a second peg in from the opposite side, but the second peg doesn't "tie" anything together--it goes to the tenon and stops. It basically is there to give the appearance of a single solid peg but, to my untrained eyes, appears to do nothing structurally. None of our pegs are trimmed flush--they all stick out about an inch or so, which is why I was able to pull the stubby end out and find this in the first place.

But, yes, you are right--I am not a professional timber framer, which is why I am looking for a third-party opinion before I do anything else.

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#4117 - 03/21/07 09:52 AM Re: Possible faulty timberframe joints
brad_bb Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 603
Loc: Joliet, IL.
BWeiser has told me that he has at least 15 pegs like this that have been "faked". Someone needs to get there and do a proper inspection/confirmation of this. This could potentially be a big safety issue!

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#4118 - 03/21/07 10:02 AM Re: Possible faulty timberframe joints
Jim Rogers Online   confused

Member

Registered: 03/14/02
Posts: 1639
Loc: Georgetown, MA, USA
I'm scheduled to stop by there on Tuesday the 27th and view this frame and pegs....

Jim Rogers
_________________________
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!

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#4119 - 03/26/07 09:03 AM Re: Possible faulty timberframe joints
BWeiser Offline
Member

Registered: 03/15/07
Posts: 8
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Looking forward to meeting you tomorrow, Jim. Thanks again for making time in your schedule to do this.

Brett

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#4120 - 03/28/07 09:40 AM Re: Possible faulty timberframe joints
brad_bb Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 603
Loc: Joliet, IL.
Eagerly awaiting the report....

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#4121 - 03/28/07 07:01 PM Re: Possible faulty timberframe joints
Jim Rogers Online   confused

Member

Registered: 03/14/02
Posts: 1639
Loc: Georgetown, MA, USA
Just got home to my sawmill office.
2200 + miles on my old SUV.....

More tomorrow....

Jim Rogers
_________________________
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!

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#4122 - 03/28/07 10:25 PM Re: Possible faulty timberframe joints
Timber Goddess Offline
Member

Registered: 12/04/05
Posts: 574
Loc: Golden, B.C.
I think there's a bunch of us eagerly awaiting the results...

Stay tuned for the next episode of...
CSI: TGF - The Series

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#4123 - 03/29/07 08:05 AM Re: Possible faulty timberframe joints
BWeiser Offline
Member

Registered: 03/15/07
Posts: 8
Loc: Carlisle, PA
I'll let Jim fill you in--I'd probably miss something! The house shouldn't fall on our heads or anything, at least.

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#4124 - 03/29/07 02:51 PM Re: Possible faulty timberframe joints
Jim Rogers Online   confused

Member

Registered: 03/14/02
Posts: 1639
Loc: Georgetown, MA, USA
Brett's house is a beautiful white pine frame with sips on the walls. The roof is has a standard 2x10 framing structure.
The pegs were 1" oak pegs or dowels most likely.

Here is a shot of the pegs as they appear:


As you can see they ends of the pegs haven't been chamfered, and when you remove a shorten peg the inside end hadn't been chamfered either. This end when pounded in would, it appears, to catch on the back side of the mortise once through the tenon.

As shown here in this terrible photo:



With a little extra pounding it probably would have come through the hole and been outside the post, but there is, of course, the risk of blowing out the side of the posts. And I'd have to assume that they didn't want to risk it.

As has been discussed here, in the past, and again in an on going discussion, the pegs on the end of the braces may not be doing much to help the frame except during the raising. In order for a peg to be needed, in the case of a tension joint, the opposing brace joint has to fail in compression. This is not likely if the joints and brace lengths are cut correctly.

My advice to Brett was to get a smaller dowel, and push the short peg out and replace it with a longer tapered oak peg to "catch" both sides of the mortise and then cut off the excess peg as needed, especially in the area near the kitchen where these would be at shoulder height.

One peg was at the end of a tie beam, but with inspection of a photo of the bare frame on raising day, we could see that this tie was additionally held to the post with lag bolts coming in from the outside at a second floor joist pocket.
And Brett had seen them using other bolts or lags when he was there before the frame had been covered up.

It is my opinion, that this framing crew was just a little lazy and didn't point, or chamfer the ends of their pegs, and just tried to cover it up with short hole filler pegs....

Brett may create his own replacement pegs and one at a time push out the short pegs and replace them. He may slide the replacement peg in and use it as a peg pusher to remove the shorten peg depending on which side the shorten peg is on.
It wouldn't seem to matter that much as to which side he inserts the replacement pegs as most of the joints I saw seemed to have the mortise and tenon in the center of the beam...

This isn't something that he wants to create a law suit out of, but wanted to understand what effect if any these short pegs would have on his frame. And with the sips covering the walls, and spanning over posts so that one side of the sip was screwed to one interrupted tie beam and the other side of the sip was screwed to the adjacent interrupted tie, these joints would have a very hard time fail.

And if the framing crew who erected his frame ever read this they should chamfer or point their pegs a little more and not use short hole filler pegs any more, this is very unprofessional....

With a few pegs replaced, Brett and his wife can sleep soundly at night....

Jim Rogers
_________________________
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!

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#4125 - 03/29/07 05:55 PM Re: Possible faulty timberframe joints
brad_bb Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 603
Loc: Joliet, IL.
That's very good news. I just can't understand how anyone that is building a timber frame would do something so hokey at the end. You should only be working a timberframe if you are a craftman that cares about the quality of work. How could you love the wood and not finish it correctly? Ok, I think Brett should at a minimum write a letter to the firm that designed it and the firm that erected it and express dissapointment in the lack of care taken. Include pictures of what was found, and include pictures of the new pegs made to correct the problems. At least now Brett gets to be a part of his timber frame by making these repairs. Use of the lag bolts is pretty hokey too and goes against what the timber frame is about.

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