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Re: Hide the Timber Frame?! #5508 02/11/06 03:56 AM
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Emmett Greenleaf Offline
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Jroy
What you are calling outfill describes the normal practice of hanging SIP's on the outside face of your frame.
Do a google search on waddle and daub.
Contact the folks at TTRAG, better yet go to their meeting in MA this spring
Visit the library at the Heartwood School
Did you try an "infill" search here on the tfg website ?
good luck

Re: Hide the Timber Frame?! #5509 02/12/06 03:37 AM
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Scott McClure Offline
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Robert Laporte does a sort of an "outfill" using a sort of Larsen truss applied vertically to the TF & filled with a somewhat compacted clay/straw mix. If you google "econest" you'll probably come up with their website.

Re: Hide the Timber Frame?! #5510 02/27/06 04:41 PM
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Pete Ladd Offline
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I just want to double-ditto Scott's concerns. (At least in cold regions.)

I saw a frame need major repairs within 10 years, due to condensed vapor on the outside faces of the posts. I blame insufficient vapor retarder detailing, combined with modern insulation.

Foe me, this is a concern with an infill system, since every post represents a penetration of the vapor retarding plane and the conditioned space within the wall. As we know, SIPs need perfect edge-to edge sealing, for the same reason.

I'd think in this case I'd run both strapping/lathe and (taped) vapor barrier continuous right past the inside faces of the posts, since they are concealed anyway. Thus to reduce plaster cracking, also.

Good luck.

Pete

Re: Hide the Timber Frame?! #5511 02/27/06 06:40 PM
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jroy Offline
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this is just a thought..but would it be possible to build a 2x frame 24"oc on the outside of the timber frame, with horizontal strapping on the inside face, after wiring is run have it insulated with spray foam(which will incapsulate the studs reducing conduction)..i know sips basically do the same thing, but the costs of me putting the walls together is cost effective from my point of view...

Re: Hide the Timber Frame?! #5512 02/28/06 03:36 AM
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Emmett Greenleaf Offline
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jroy,
the box in a box approach will work if you have enuff foundation on which to sit the outer 2x frame. If you want some real insulating go with 2x6's. with a tf complete interior now only holding up itself sounds kinda like a tad bit of overkill.

Re: Hide the Timber Frame?! #5513 02/28/06 03:17 PM
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jroy Offline
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i agree that it sounds alittle overkill, but i am not totally sold on sips...i am not a fan of osb, and theyre expensive to boot. seeing that i am not hampered by time constraints, i dont mind building the "skin" out of 2x material.

what i would like to know is if you guys think this is workable, and if i am re-inventing the wheel so to speak...

on another note, the knowledge that i have gotten from this web site has been invaluable to my understanding of tf'ing..many many thanks to all

Re: Hide the Timber Frame?! #5514 02/28/06 03:40 PM
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Paul Freeman Offline
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It is workable and has been done many times. It is also redundant structurally and not as energy efficient since wood is not that great an insulator. It is also mucn more difficult to limit infiltration and therefore you get hit again on energy efficiency. Would you use plywood as an alternative to the OSB? What about on the floor? Some have found OSB stands up better to the weather while you raise your frame and get a roof on it. I wonder if your deck would be subjugated to the weather even longer if you were to add a stick frame around your timber frame? Some people don't like OSB for fear of the release of toxins into the home, but a curtainwall panel would release these (if any) to the outside of the home. Just playing devil's advocate, but I am a proponent of energy efficiency... in a perfect world we would have a green, affordable panel available to us!

Murus (are they still around?) made a green panel, I think it was basically modular stick walls with cellulose blown in. I can also attest to the potential disaster of infill systems. With enough maintenance and foaming in of joints between sticks and posts it can work, but is it worth it? Will it be worth it when oil is $3/gal or $4?? I think the industry has settled on panels as the lesser of evils and we're all hoping for greener enclosures.

Re: Hide the Timber Frame?! #5515 02/28/06 06:46 PM
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jroy Offline
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Paul
what if one uses spray in place foam (icyenne system)in lieu of celluose??..by using horizontal strapping on the inside the foam would incapsulate the studs limiting the amount of conduction...and by doing so filling the wall cavity completely..i am planning to use either plywood or pine boards cut on site for sheathing

Re: Hide the Timber Frame?! #5516 03/02/06 09:48 PM
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ekefjord Offline
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jroy,
I've recently been working on enclosuring a TF with 2x8's, on the inside we used a wind stopping textile, on the outside gyproc ( to create a shear diaphragm). This being in Sweden and here we don't have a SIP industry to speak of, this way was most economic ond gives good insulation values. As insulation we used cellulose that was injected under pressure through holes made in the textile. The cellulose was recycled newspapers from Englad! added with Bor, for fire safety reasons. On a trip in Vermont,USA, I saw a similar system but they had used recycled JEANS, and instead of textile they had used a plastic moisture barrier. The textile in our project was choosed to get a house not to airtight, with an airtight enclosure you need to keep a sharp eye on ventilation system. Of course, here we never install AC systems to keep cool during summer, so the problem with air tightness and ventilation might not be the same as for you. All I can say is I like the newspaper way and that it seems overkill (structurally) to build a 2x wall outsida a TF, but what to do: it's cheap and a nice system when it comes to installing wireing and windows.


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Jonas Ekefjord
Re: Hide the Timber Frame?! #5517 03/05/06 08:15 PM
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Mike Yaker Offline
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Can you tell us more about the wind stopping textile?

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