Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
SIPs as pool room enclosure #5801 02/23/07 04:37 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 136
J
John Buday Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
J
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 136
I had added this to an older thread under general questions and recieved no response. Hopping to get some feedback by moving it here

Quote:
Originally posted by John Buday:
While I was paying a visit with an engineer to discuss a timber frame pool enclosure, he was answering phone calls from his guy in the field who was surveying a failed SIPs panel system.
The failures were due to installation mistakes and the installers had apparently done everything they could to insure failure..but! It was a bit like looking over frostbite photos while planing an arctic trek (or Antarctic if Gordon McD reads this).

So...taking all this as a providential reminder to pay attention to detail I recalled this thread and thought I would revive it and add a quest for combined wisdom regarding SIPs detailing in humid environments.

On the other hand I could spec a vulcanized rubber enclosure.

And yes the pool will have a cover and there will be a dehumidifier

Re: SIPs as pool room enclosure #5802 02/24/07 06:56 AM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 286
Raphael D. Swift Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 286
Given the climate controls I think SIPs or blue board based SSPs should be fine but I'm not an expert in this area. Which is why I didn't offer an opinion the first time around, who's your panel supplier?
The only pool enclosure I've had anything to do with was an outrageously expensive coated steel and glass structure with electrically controlled adjustable tint glass.


Raphael D. Swift
DBA: DreamScapes
Re: SIPs as pool room enclosure #5803 02/25/07 04:06 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 46
D
dovetail Offline
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 46
Hi John-

There are certain laws of physics which need to be obeyed when building a pool enclosure which might be more boldly flaunted in a less extreme environment. I'm sure it's old hat for you, but moisture drive is the most critical one to understand. Water seeks it's own level, and so a warm and humid environment indoors has water vapor in it that wants to get out side, where it's cooler (and therefore dryer- cool air can hold less moisture than warm air). In the PACNW where you are it's perhaps less critical than in the upper mid-west where I'm from, as the temperature differential is much greater- but none-the-less it's important no matter where one builds a pool enclosure.
I have found the books by Joe Lstiburek, specifically "Building in Cold Climates", to be particularly helpful in understanding how the laws of physics work when building, and what the consequences are when they're not. I believe Amazon has them.

Thinking about SIPs specifically, the EPS core has a very low perm rating (not sure about iso cores- never used 'em..). The area that needs to be payed particular attention is the seams, or joints. If the expanding foam is not injected in to the joint thoroughly and correctly, a void could result; this area is thereby underinsulated and undersealed, allowing moisture vapor to enter and, when reaching a cold surface (such as the outside SIP skin), condense in to water. Water and OSB is a bad combination. Trouble is it's difficult if not impossible to know if you've done a good job without destructive testing.

In any heating climate, the strategy should be to adequately seal the SIP joints on the inside, so water vapor has no chance of entering. This can be done with strips of adhesive membrane (such as Ice and Water Shield). Insulspan uses the strategy on their roof SIPs. The wall to roof connection is also critical, and can also be covered with Ice and Water Shield. Working around timbers is tricky, but possible. Walls can be covered with a vapor barrier such as 6 mil poly, being careful to detail the edges, overlaps and penetrations carefully.

It should be noted that any wall system needs to be detailed extremely well when inclosing a pool. SIPs have the benefit of being tight- and the Achilles heel of concentrating potential shortcomings at seams, where they may go undetected until things have progressed beyond the point of no return.

In addition to sealing the SIPs well, HVAC needs to be detailed and executed by someone who thoroughly understands the building science. This is no place for the low bidder.
IG windows should be used as a barometer. If they are condensating consistently, indoor humidity levels are too high.

Hope that helps. I've been down this road once or twice..

Chris Koehn


I think, therefore I am (I think)..
Chris Koehn
TimberGuides Design • Build
Re: SIPs as pool room enclosure #5804 02/27/07 04:01 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 136
J
John Buday Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
J
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 136
Thanks Chris

As if it’s not enough to deal with gravity, wind, rain and seismic stuff....
Your point about understanding the physics involved is well taken. And while taking a shower and noticing that I had forgotten to turn the fan on, it occurred to me that the notion of the living space envelope being less moisture laden is a generality. Learning more about this issue can only be good.

And yes I do have a lot of revelations in the shower

I have ordered "Builder's Guide to Mixed Climates: Details for Design and Construction - Joseph Lstiburek" from Amazon, from the description of the book, this would seem to be more for this climate.
I will also endeavor to determine what manufacturer will be supplying the SIPs before turning the plans loose and see about obtaining a recommended installation plan from them.

J.E.B.

Re: SIPs as pool room enclosure #5805 03/01/07 07:33 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3
D
David Blackwell Offline
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3
Hi John,
The upcoming conference at Asilomar has two breakouts on SIPS, one basic with Bill Wachtler one advanced with Al Cobb. You can get input there.
No Longer a Lurker
David

Re: SIPs as pool room enclosure #5806 03/02/07 07:13 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 136
J
John Buday Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
J
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 136
David

Very good. I will make it a point to attend those

J.E.B.


Moderated by  Jim Rogers, mdfinc, Paul Freeman 

Newest Members
Bradyhas1, cpgoody, James_Fargeaux, HFT, Wrongthinker
5137 Registered Users
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3
(Release build 20190728)
PHP: 5.4.45 Page Time: 0.179s Queries: 14 (0.088s) Memory: 3.1476 MB (Peak: 3.5814 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2024-05-02 12:52:26 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS