Thank you for your interest and amusement: I so seldom have the opportunity to be entertaining.

The tolerances I mentioned are necessary for several reasons. First, the CNC machinary in our factories work to precise tolerances, whether we ask them to or not, and so require material of precise tolerances. As you know, 1/64" is not especially tight by CNC standards.

Second, the erection times I mentioned are not possible if tolerances become sloppy. This is simply because, contrary to statistics theory, in the real world errors tend to accumulate in obedience to Murphy's Law, not cancel each other out. In order to keep a CPM schedule, or program as they say in the UK, jobsite adjustments are not acceptable, and so tolerances must be tight, or Murphy reigns supreme.

Third, the 30,000 customers that own our frames expect the quality such tight tolerances provide. Difficult to believe, I know, but if you doubt it, I suggest you build a few frames for Japanese clients in Japan and see what tolerances they expect, and observe what claims you field after consruction is complete. Brutal business indeed compared to US or UK standards of business (I worked in London for a time as a General Contractor, as a GC in Tokyo for ten years, and another 15 years in the US).

As to 30,000 units standing in 600 years, you jest. You might as well ask how many steel buildings will be standing 600 years after erection. War, wind, fire and fashion wait for no man.

Stan

We're not building pianos here. There are scores of timber framed buildings around the world that are centuries old & exhibit many of the "flaws" alluded to by SRC. They exhibit the heart & soul of their builders, as do many new timber frames. Any exposed work I've seen using PSL, LVL or the like is, to me, comparatively flat & lifeless, reflecting the nature of the materials. I use the stuff too, at times, but a piece of LVL has never inspired thoughts of the forest that gave up the trees to produce it.
Materials & methods aside, whatever systems being used that regulary yield such fast enclosure times are worthy of study, though I've seen smaller, well planned timber frames go up nearly as fast as long as there's sufficient room on site & adequate crane & man power. Standardizing & practicing (30,000 times!) help too.
There's room for all kinds of buildings & builders, just like there are different kinds of people to inhabit them. While setting the bar high is laudable, disparagement of talented, conscientious, hard working builders, no matter what form they build in, cheapens us all.

Hello again Stan old chap

Thanks for your response to my question

As far as timber framing goes I am a new starter, I am a joiner but have developed a serious interest in the specifics of hand cut timber frames with a view to designing and building my own in the not too distant futrue.

I dont know much about making building components with cnc machines, although I spent 4 years digitising full scale drawings to drive cnc cutters and routers for sign making, (clients like british airways, british petroleum, ford garages etc). I had to work (editing)as close as 1/10 mm. The computer might be clever but it cant understand wood and work in synch with its unpredictable and continually unique nature. The way you elevate the "precision" and "accuracy" of components produced by the cnc system, and look down on traditional timber framing (cos its not as squariely square as your beloved cnc unit can produce) reminds me of the sneering contmept my old bosses had for the traditional signwriters they were putting out of work (cos their letter forms werent "consistently reproducable") :rolleyes:
I just had an idea-why not machine your components from solid pvc-much more stable and predictable; you could even weld them together on site or even better get on the phone to germany and get them to design an extrusion that will squeeze little "units" out, one every 2.8 minutes
At the end of the day housebuilding can be high volume assembling of characterless impersonal indentikit units, wasteful of materials and energy, working on short term fashion and profit goals. Or alternatively it can be a social community effort, where homeowners and there neihbours take an active part in designing and creating there own homes; building to last (yes its a serious concept, not a joke-why shouldnt a dwelling last 600 years? plenty have at least in the uk); using or recycling materials that can be obtained from sustainable sources and not harmful to our environment and not demanding vast amounts of energy (to make in a factory, transport around, break up and dispose of to make way for the next fashion trend etc)
Cheers Jonathan

Gentlemen:

Cheap shots. Is that the kind of forum you guys like?

Scott admits that there is room for all kinds of buildings and builders, so it would appear he gets the point, but he then turns around and accuses me of disparaging "talented, conscientious, hard working builders." Rubbish. Nothing I have written has disparged anyone. I have been discussing building systems, not workers.

As to Scott's comments about making pianos, I counter that we are not making barns, either. His attitude is what got General Motors in trouble, and let the Japanese get their foot in the American car market to the point that they now dominate it. People want quality and reliability once they know what is possible. At the same time, I am not denying that there is the consumer that prefers cracks, gaps and knee braces, just as there are people that love wood floors with terrific gouges. These are not my target market. I leave them to you, Scott.

Even some cheap shots by Jonathan, I am dissapointed to see. I am not "looking down on traditional timber framing." Traditional frames have their niche. I have honestly described a different product, and compared the physical tolerances with a solid-wood frame. If the facts bother you, then look away, but don't stoop to slandering me for answering your questions honestly.

The snide remark about PVC extrusions was unworthy and unintelligent. If you don't know why residential framing is done using wood products, do your research or go back to signmaking, but trouble me not with nonsense.

Jonathan slanders me further by implying that my products are "characterless impersonal indentikit units." My, what a large soapbox he has. To the contrary, of the 30,000+ units I mentioned before, ALL are one-off custom designed buildings. He goes on to imply they are "wasteful of materials and energy." On what do you base that broad statement, Jonathan? Certainly not fact, and certainly not on even a basic understanding of commercial wood product manufacturing. Do your research before you attempt to act the expert, please.

I am not joking about buildings lasting 600 years. With good maintenance, most properly constructed building types will last that long. If you doubt it, then you should investigate the repairs that have been made over the centuries to 600 year old buildings. I have, and I know that they survived not just because they were built by romantic, nature loving carpenters with thews of iron, but because each generation was determined they would survive. My point was that Jonathan must be joking when he asks ANYONE how many buildings out of 30,000 will survive for 600 years. Poor flashing and leaky roofs are the initial cause of the deterioration of more wood buildings than anything else. Are traditional timber frames immune to poor roof maintenance? Are they immune to fire, flood, urban renewal, and termites? Don't ask a stupid question and then expect serious people to admire your cleverness.

Jonathan's comment about recycling and sustainability displays a lack of knowledge about both subjects. Perhaps someone with professional industry expereince will take the time to enlighten him about the numbers? I grow bored.

I am saddened that my simple attempt to use this forum to find an architect, and then to answer questions posed, has only resulted in ridicule from the uninformed. I had expected better.

Stan

"...you know not of what you speak if you believe timber framing in the US is to the tolerances I am speaking of. When the width, thickness and length of the timbers you use are all +- 1/64", then your umbrage will be justified."

CNC machines are programmed to those tolerances, sure. But take your tape measure, or calipers, or hook rule, or whatever measuring device you trust onto the jobsite and see what your beloved machine is producing.
Timberframers work with wood, which is an organic material. We often celebrate the irregularity or the natural form of it. We are not working with "extruded cellulose," which, in its attempt to reach perfection, consistently fails.

"When your frames go up without any gaps at the connections, and every joint intended to be 90 degrees on paper is indeed 90 degrees, +-.015 degrees without any jobsite adjustments, then I will apologize and call you master."

Again, you are describing the programming tolerances here. Let's keep it in the real world.
Or have you checked them all with your square?

"When you can cut and label the joints and all parts in your frame in two hours, and then erect not only your frame, but install your wall sheathing, roof sheathing and floor sheathing and exterior envelope insulation in 1.5 working days, then I will prostrate myself before you in abject humility."

If I could do all that, I would have something that none of my clients would want to call home, much less pass onto their grandchildren.

"Until then, please calm yourself. Oh yes, and if you know of any good architects interested in doing this kind of work, please let me know: I have lots of work for them."

To find an architect, check out the TFBC. timberframe.org.
You are barking up the wrong tree here.

Stanley old chap you just dont seem to have a sense of humour do you, Why not loosen up a bit mate and relax. (my comment about plastic components was a little quip, to make you laugh but you obviously didnt "get" it)
PS Mr covington, dont tell me I'm "uninformed"; I just think I'm informed by a different set of values than you are thats all. :rolleyes:

Well, this is all pretty interesting.

If we could edit out some of the bile (from whatever source), it would actually make a pretty good article for our quarterly.

We have had some success in the past publishing exchanges from Ask The Experts.

Keep it coming.

We would not, of course, publish without the permission of all parties.

Stan
It was the " call yourself master" remark that seemed implicitly disparaging to me. Damn few builders of any stripe, except some of those fortunate enough to be part of a longstanding tradition & it's accumulated knowledge.
I believe part of the reason that people are drawn to timberframes is that as the world gets more high tech & impersonal ( ever long for a human being on the other end of a "service" phone call?) is that natural materials & their habits help re-connect people to the world.
As for GM I believe it was/is their arrogance that's bringing them down.
Different strokes for different folks. Most of the rest is hierarchical BS.
With all due respect, Scott

All:
This is an interesting discussion. To me it would appear that an highly skilled design and planning group could consult with specialty timber frame designers that are familiar with cnc production, engineered material limitations, metal connection options.
You wish to improve your perfectly produced and erected product and I applaud you for that.
That is after all what I continue to attempt on a daily basis.
Shelter is many things to many people and if we all sold the same thing choices would be a thing of the past.

If you provide employment as part of this endeavor (and you must) please consider the humans on the labor side as well as the consumer side.

Regarding your CPM and site tolerances: do you know what concrete tastes like and how your face feels after 8 hours in the sun? Have you experienced the fatigue that leaning into a 25 mph breeze all day trying to stay on schedule? Do you kow the joy of freezing rain or a nice dust storm with a crane on site?

I wish you well and believe we all will benefit from this dialogue.

Best regards,

Curtis