I have been recommended to acquire a japanese pull saw. Has anyone ever found this family of saws useful in timber framing? They look somewhat minature for cutting big joints, but maybe suitable for fine finishing?

Thanks

There are a a variety of sizes available. From tiny to large.

The larger ones are not as easily aquired but suitable for timber-framing.

There are also different sets and filing of the teeth depending on the wood you are working (hard vs. soft).

I like the vendor Hida Tools they are on the web at www.hidatool.com.

I have been using the folding style pull saw designed for pruning and tree triming. These saws have replacable blades and fold up to protect the blades and your fingers.I would reccomend either the Silky Gomboy or the Tajima GK-G240. Tom

Here are a couple links:
Silky saw
Tajima Tools

I have a 300mm saw with crosscut on one side and rip on the other. They leave very smooth cuts and are very precise. However I find them to be slow for larger cuts. Most of the time I use my Stanley 26" Sharptooth saw which has the same tooth pattern, but cuts on the push stroke. The 26" saw has more than twice the cutting length which I find is faster. This saw also rips quite well.

Dave

The pull saws are great but it is a matter of personal preference. The Silky Gomboy (210 or 240mm) folding saw is great to have in your tool belt on a raising. The now have a saw called Silky Master. The largest of these is 330mm. It has a long straight handle and cuts beautifully. It is not as aggressive for large timbers as the largest Japanese timber saws but is very useful in cutting joinery. It has a replaceable blade. The finer quality handmade Japanese saws work very nicely but are tricky to impossible to sharpen yourself. I understand (but am not certain) that you can send them to Hida for sharpening but it is a long turnaround time (>1 month). The best web prices I've found are at orchardsedge.com and they ship promptly. I recommend buying replacement blades at the time you buy the saw and you also save $ if you buy 3 blades at once.

I got a 340mm model like Dave's from The Japan Woodworker catalog and absolutely love it.
The catalog is online at http://www.japanwoodworker.com/

It's a bit more agressive than the 300mm model, still leaves a very nice surface and cuts very precisely. This entire joint was cut with it, as you can see I have almost no cleanup to do.

Thankyou everyone for thiis feedback.

Raphael, just to be clear: did you do the rip and cross cutting with the same saw?

Yup, it's a traditional two sided saw with rip teeth on one side and cross cut teeth on the other.

If given the choice of a variety of hand saws I would always go for the Japanese pull saws. Cuts very precise, clean, quickly and with little effort. As with any well designed tool they do come with a higher price tag than conventional saws but it is money well spend.

The saw Raphael and I are talking about is called a Ryoba, which has both rip and crosscut teeth. I got mine locally, but Woodcraft Supply has a good selection of Japanese saws.

Dave

Thats clever; same saw, different teeth!

Since Dave remarked that he would not use a pull saw for larger timbers, could you tell us the cross section of the timber in the photo, Raphael? Would you have completed quicker with a conventional saw (but less neatly)?

I did not cut this oak beam but I think I can speak for everbody that has used push and pull saws. Yes, you can cut this with a conventional saw but it will take you longer and it will not be as clean a cut. The pull saws have a much thinner blade then push saws and therefore are removing less material ( in width but more in depth) then push saws resulting in less effort for the user.
The harder/denser the wood the harder it is to cut. Try cutting through a knot ( not fun either way) with a push and then with a pull saw. You will notice the difference right away.

My suggestion: Get one of those pull saws and I am sure you will not regret you did.

That's a 5x7, the catalog lists the saw as being for use on timbers up to 6" x 8". The only saws I have that cut faster plug into the wall or burn gasoline.

I've used it on 8"x 9" timbers semi-effectively but it's really slowing down at that point due to shortened strokes and requires a bit of over stearing (in rips) to keep any mid-kerf deflection from crossing the line.

One benefit nobody has mentioned is the position of the timber is higher while cutting so you can build your saw horses up at a comfortable height for layout.

That's interesting, Raphael. All the old Japanese wood block prints show them working on blocks or low tressels and holding the work down with their feet. Working like this gives you a tremendous amount of leverage. Staying on top of the work lets you see what you are doing on both sides of the cut. Low tressels are much safer for using 16"circular saws and morticers as well. It has always bothered me to see people standing on milk crates to run large power tools. Tall saw horses would have to be my number one pet peeve, but that's just me.
No more milk crates for me, my wife got me two of these for Christmas. Tom

While the jury seems to be voting for the Japanese saws, I still have to go with my Stanley Sharptooth for speed. It has the same tooth pattern as the Japanese saws, and in my experience cuts much faster. It will also rip with ease. JMO though.

Dave

Starting a cut is also easier since you are pulling the saw towards you. So it is less likely that it will jump away from your cut line like push saws tend to do.
There are frame saws with blades (conventional or Japanese) up to 700mm long. That will allow you to pretty much cut any size beam you will ever come across.

Sorry Griffon I got off topic. Hopefully this will be more helpful. The 3 on the bottom have replacable blades. the 3 on top have to be sharpened. The wooden handles on the Japanese saws are not original, they usually come with handles like the one on the bottom. The timber saw on top is very agressive, too much for dry hardwoods. Tom

The saws are from top to bottom,
1. Japanese timber saw, 420mm,7-4 tpi.
2. Stanley Shark-tooth, 26" 8 tpi.
3. Japanese Ryoba saw, 300mm 9 tpi. crosscut/ 5tpi rip.
4. Japanese Ryoba saw, 270mm
5. Tajima folding G-saw, 240mm
6. Japanese Kataba saw (fine teeth) 240mm

I pull the saw straight into my center of mass (if possible), so if the timber is up the pull is down into the saw horse, similiar leverage advantage without getting tread marks on the timber. I'm always cutting the top and the near side so my view is better for having the timber closer to my face

I certainly won't be abandoning my lower saw horses when it comes to playing with boring machines and circular saws.

In the face of such comprehensive and conclusive evidence I shall forthwith place an order. Supply in France is not quite so easy and as I've spent some time searching it all out I'll share the results for the benefit of other french researchers ( ??! ).

These three all do scies japonaises:

http://www.ftfi.fr/
http://www.hmdiffusion.com/
http://www.bordet.fr/pages/

The latter offer them in longer lengths (to 300mm) and also supply some Silky saws. These latter are also available from elagage (tree-surgery) suppliers:

http://www.elagage-hevea.com/
http://www.arbres-online.com/

Silky saws are either curved or straight. Certain of the models which Tom reccomends are not offered here, but the Gomtaro is straight and available from the last named supplier.

Again, thankyou all for all info.

Griffon,

if you are ordering online anyway you might want to see if the saw/s you are looking for is available in one of the neighboring countries. I bet they will ship Europe wide. Make sure to buy a few extra blades. Some of them tend to break very easily since they are thinner and harder then conventional saw blades.

I've used the Gyokucho 300mm ryoba saws a bunch and they're pretty good.

But I've recently become a big fan of the Z saws that have 330mm separate crosscut and rip blades. I get them from:
http://www.tashirohardware.com/
and they're super friendly and have super sharp saws. They cut a good bit faster than the 300mm Gyokucho, but smooth enough for timber framing.
Brad

This may not be bang-on topic, but can pull saws be used to cut 'inside' curvatures, eg. curved knee joints or joist stress relief at girt. Otherwise, what to use? I've used a Makita jigsaw for plywood but ...

Griffon,

I doubt that you can cut a curve with any off the mentioned/available pull saws. Simply because the blade is to wide thus wanting to cut straight. If you want to hand cut the curved knee braces you could to that with a frame saw. You can get a variety of saw blades for this type of saw including a very narrow blade, similar to a band-saw blade, which will allow you to cut any shape you can imagine. It will be a conventional saw blade though but it cuts very well.
In the power tool section there is the option of either hand held or stationary band saw.

Joist reductions were historicaly cut with an axe. curved braces can be shaped with a chain saw or hewn with an axe. It is best if you can find naturally curved material for braces so that the grain follows the curve. I like live edge braces the best, look behind me in the picture I posted. All the braces over the book shelves are live edge, sawn on only two sides and the bark drawknifed off to follow the natural curve. Tom

Thought you might appreciate knowing your words weren't wasted



This saw position allows visual on both sides of the tenon nose. I was tempted by the Tashiro blades, and I'm not dissapointed, so thanks 'timbrewrestler'. Cheaper to import than anything available in France. I'm especially pleased with the rip blade. Incidentally, Mr Tashiro gives away a free convex blade with orders in excess of $100. Can't think of a use for that in t-f (?) but its good for cutting roof-boards midway on the rafter-line (lots of these to repair in our old outbuildings).

PS. Does anyone else rip-cut brace tenons?

I'll rip brace tennons if the wood is being polite. If it's fighting my ripsaw I pull out the cordless circular saw, kerf them then clean up with with the chisel and plane.

I've since thought of a good use for a convex blade:

When cutting to a limit (ie. not whole section) and where two cuts must meet prependicularly, my see-saw action (I'm still in training!) normally results in wood holding within, not at the extremities. Uncertainty over the exact location of this holding wood generally results in de-passing the desired limits. Use of a convex blade at this point is of help in cutting only the wood within.

am curious as to where you all get your Japanese pull saws sharpened?

Ron,

I have not seen a japanese pull saw that could be sharpened. The blade is hardened steel that cannot be sharpened anyway. That is way the teeth brake of if you hit something, say a nail or so. Better of having a few extra blades.

I just had my saw (Ryoba) sharpened. A gentleman I met while working on a job in New England sent it to a friend of his in Vermont who did a beautiful job. Tuned it up a bit -it had "acquired" a bit of a bow in the blade. It's now nice and straight and much sharper than when it left me.
Japan Woodworker sells the various sized feather files used to sharpen the saws but I would submit to you that this is a little trickier than sharpening a Western saw. I mentioned in an earlier post that HIDA might have a sharpening service available. They did at one time. I should also clarify that all this talk of sharpening refers to the nicer handmade saws, not the disposable-blade saws. Don't get me wrong, I like my Silky disposable-blade saws very much too!!

Threw away my American saw!